Editorial: Why We Hate Wonder Woman (Updated!)
[Jonostarsmore's note: Feel free to disagree or agree with Goblin's points. One of the comments implied that comments were being filtered, but that is simply not the case. Censorship is not our thing. Open debate is. Thank you.]
Or is it just me?
Well, it might not be you, but those lovable haters over at Topless Robot have put together a pretty substantial list of why Wonder Woman isn't all she's cracked up to be.
It's unfortunate that Diana is looked at as the pinnacle of women in comics because most of the list is pretty spot on. I'll admit, I haven't read any of Gail Simone's run (and knowing her style, I'd probably enjoy it), but I think most of the arguments ring truer than most WW fans would like to admit.
I'm going to get an inbox of hate mail for this, I know it.
UPDATE:
Well, at least i was right about the hate mail (or comments). Let me address some points that have been brought up in response to the original article.
First, I wasn't saying that if you disagreed you were wrong. I was just saying that even if you hadn't thought of it, Topless Robot came up with the list.
To the issue of most of the list being comprised of Golden Age rhetoric and not representing the current state of affairs, look at how many of the entries specifically state that the issue at hand was developed in the 1940s and would be excusable by those standards.The only problem is those same entries sum up by stating that these relics fo yesteryear continue to play roles in today's books. Things like the invisible jet, Steve Trevor, the lasso and her costume are very prominent factors whenever you see Wonder Woman stories - be they in comics, TV, DVD and even Joss Whedon's purposed WW film. These things may have been created in a different era, but that doesn't mean they don't still exist.
On another point, I freely admitted that I haven't read Simone's run on the book because I was forced to cut books around that time due to financial reasons. Simone has been writing the book for not even twelve issues, and I haven't read her run yet . Does this mean I've never read a Wonder Woman book ever? Does it mean I'm so unfamiliar with the character that I'll follow any blog post about her? No. I've read many Wonder Woman books and while I'm certainly not a hardcore WW fan or her biggest expert, that doesn't mean I'm a neophyte on her either.
I could go on point for point, but I think those were the two biggest and most in need of attention. I certainly hope no one feels I think less of Diana simply because she's a woman. I posted the Topless Robot article because I thought it was amusing as well as pointed out some of the character's flaws. If they decide to write an article entitled "This Is Why Spider-Man Sucks," I'll probably post that too despite being something of a Spidey fanboy. Lord knows I've bitched about certain runs of his and the X-Men and several other books I continue to enjoy.
While I certainly want to get feedback from you, the readers, I do hope you're able to continue reading my work here at Pink Kryptonite. I can't stop you from disagreeing with my views, of course, but simply be aware that I posted this article with no specific ill will toward Wonder Woman as a character or as a book.
Goblin
Posted to Comics, Superheroes on 21 August 2008
· Comments (13)
Other stuff like this: DC, Gail Simone, Topless Robot, Wonder Woman
i hate to say it, because i want to like wonder woman, but they're right. but this sort of seems to be more a problem with dc's continuity obsession, since most of the things that make wonder woman crappy are the things that were invented at the beginning. with bats and supes, of course, it's not the same, since those two were wholly original characters that came out of nowhere, and wonder woman, as they point out, is basically superman with boobs.
what she could use is a complete overhaul. screw continuity and just completely reinvent the character. no lasso, no plane, just an honest-to-god feminist icon for the 21st century.
this of course will never happen.
I'm not too fond of the insinuation that if someone doesn't agree with your point, then they just don't want to admit it. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across to me. I can understand that people haven't found the Wonder Woman all that compelling, but I think most of the haters rarely give her more than a passing chance and have not read much that's been done recently (or they've forgotten what's been done well in the past).
Making fun of Golden Age comics is ridiculously easy. Tearing apart Rucka's, Perez's, or Simone's take? Not so ridiculously easy. Wonder Woman was well loved with the TV show, and that was all "camp" elements like the bracelets, lasso, costume, and invisible plane. That's not the problem.
I think it's always been obvious why Wonder Woman doesn't sell as well as Superman and Batman, and it's simply because she's a woman and not a man. Anything else is just trying to disguise that fact. The character could maybe use some changes, but I think this is less about the character and more about comic readers in general.
I'm not too fond of the insinuation that if someone doesn't agree with your point, then they just don't want to admit it. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it came across to me. I can understand that people haven't found the Wonder Woman all that compelling, but I think most of the haters rarely give her more than a passing chance and have not read much that's been done recently (or they've forgotten what's been done well in the past).
Making fun of Golden Age comics is ridiculously easy. Tearing apart Rucka's, Perez's, or Simone's take? Not so ridiculously easy. Wonder Woman was well loved with the TV show, and that was all "camp" elements like the bracelets, lasso, costume, and invisible plane. That's not the problem.
I think it's always been obvious why Wonder Woman doesn't sell as well as Superman and Batman, and it's simply because she's a woman and not a man. Anything else is just trying to disguise that fact. The character could maybe use some changes, but I think this is less about the character and more about comic readers in general.
I agree. You can't point out the problems with her in the Golden Age as if they're valid now. The old Supes issues? Crap. Old Batman? Crap. About as dynamic by today's standards as watching paint dry.
Every writer brings something different to the table, and I've found WW almost consistently interesting over the last few years. Yes, in terms of super-powers, she is pretty much a distaff Superman. Maybe Supes should be depowered... Of course, being magic-based, she could thrash him. She's also willing to fight far more savagely than he is.
Let's face it, there are a LOT of characters who are "just Superman with XXX." Each has their own little twist that make them unique. It's up to the writers to do something with the character, whether it's Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Hyperion, Miracleman, Captain Carrot or any of the others.
i'm not sure about you receiving hate mail, but saying you think most of the arguments outlined at topless robot "ring true" when not a single one of them post-dates 1944 and then admitting you haven't even read the latest arcs definitely earns you the "hairy eyeball of skepticism for anything you ever write again. ever." try a little scholarship, please.
I read some of the Topless Robot article. I thought it was nicely written, but poorly thought out, and full of ridiculous arguments that made very little sense.
I don't like Iron Man. I don't need to show panels from his first issues to explain why.
Why We Think Superman is a Dick.
Or is that just me?
Well, it might not be you, but that lovable hater over at Superdickery has put together a pretty good collection showing how Superman is actually a huge dick. And a polygamist. And a racist.
Now, I'll admit I haven't been reading the current Superman comics but...
Rucka's run was amazing. Personally I feel like after that, he should've been given the book for a good long run like Robinson's Starman.
I have a problem with number 9. There's the Hiketeia which was amazing. Just because it doesn't have the readership of a Batman or Superman story doesn't mean it isn't a great story... That actually comes off as sexism from Topless Robot. She's a female character so she does not have the same wide audience, and therefor she doesn't have great stories according to them. It's like a crappy little self feeding circle of logic.
The rest of the article is simply golden age, and yeah it was crap back then by today's standard. So what?
Oh and they top it off with, "We already got a dude that is sort of similar so we don't need a chick."
From what I remember, Marston created Wonder Woman to be similar to Superman, but to be an inspiration to girls and women; so clearly that's never been a point of contention. There are many characters with similar abilities to Superman, it hardly makes them less valid.
Nor does having a costume that was essentially designed a long time ago. For the love of (insert diety), Superman and Batman still wear their underwear outside of their pants. Batman's can be modified for the big screen, but Big Blue still looks like a dork with his tighty-reddies (Hmm... that doesn't roll off the tongue as well.)
Wonder Woman may not have a villain that is on the same level of common knowledge as Lex Luthor or the Joker; but is that a fault of her character, or those writing her in a less than equal society?
So did you delete all the hate comments because I'm not seeing them...
Maybe our standards are different but to me hate mail/commentary is a bit more
"wonder woman is awesome and you suck and you should die!!11" as opposed to
"I disagree with you and here's why..."
But then again I'm just some hater.
Oh, I wanted to point out the invisible jet made its first appearance in quite awhile in the last issue. Otherwise, it really hasn't been used in the comics; Steve Trevor has been out for even longer.
I don't think my comment was hateful, and it was really more directed towards the article you linked to and the attitude that seemed to grow around it of "why hasn't anyone thought of this as why Wonder Woman doesn't work?!" I just feel everything in that article is a non-issue and not the real reason why readers in general (not you) don't read Wonder Woman as much as Superman or Batman. I also feel that an article like that could be done about any superhero. I mean, if you think about it, they are all pretty ridiculous.
It's not the fact that diana is a woman that the book doesn't sell as well as the other trend-setters, Batman and superman, it's because the character has been taken in directions that are not entertaining. the book, simply stated, sucks. Gail Simone has taken a failing series and made it worse, especially by adding the new supporting cast. Nemesis is garbage. Batman and Superman have a wealth of good stories to fall back on and a great supporting cast and loyal fans. The evolution has just passed Diana by. There are ways to fix it, but DC hasn't figured it out, yet. I hope they do, though.